obama in his address said.....

leauki posts #5

I think the reason for the occupaion of the land, at least in part, is empire building and water.

Why has Isreal been at war with its neighbors ever since its creation in 1948?...

maybe because of the occupation?

Isreal being attacked and defending itself is one thing.  But it's quite another thing that Isreal didn't stop at defending themselves but actually went much furrther ...they took over the land as their own and occupied and populated it with their own people.

tulsaboyw posts

That the land was bought was pointed out in an other discussion.

To that I asked:

The Zionists "bought" all the land that comprises Isreal you say? If the land was legally bought that means that same land was legally sold.....Were these sales accepted by the original owners of the land?  

Why did we used to hear so often that the lands were "occupied territories"? "Occupied"? That carries legal implications under the Geneva convention doesn't it?

If the land was legally and rightfully "bought" as you claim, why then are there millions of Palestinaian refugees scattered about the Middle East? Why is this vicious struggle going on if the land was legally and rightfully "bought"?

The Palestinian Arab owned lands post 1967 were seized (not bought)..didn't Isreal claim the lands were "abandoned" by the owners before the military attack of the IDF forces and then the owners were denied the the right to return to their homes, businesses and farms?

 I think the Palestinians are outraged becasue they have been dispossessed of their land. This outrage has been buiilding year after year.  

I read a news story from the Baltimore Sun that was written more in the form of a personal letter from a young man to his father, a Palestinian Christian living in Jordan at the time. He reported 700,000 Palestinian families were forced from their homes in 1948  and of the massacre of the village of Dir Yassin by pro-Isreali forces.

He wrote "the United Nations had voted to partitiion Palestine. The Jewish state was allotted 56 percent of Palestine, even though Jews owned only 6 percent of the land and made up one-third of the population. ----and most of them were mandate-era immigrants."

I note he wrote the Jews owned only 6 percent of the land..."  Tulsaboyw, Is that the land you are referring to when you wrote:  that Israel as a country bought most of the land they call israel". If so, then right away we see a discrepancy.

The young man went on and described that his father had witnessed another massacre in Eilaboun, a village in Galilee. He visited Tiberias where his father was born and went to the lawyer's office where he was shown the land records with his grandfather's name, which was crossed out as the owner and the "Isreali Authority of Construction" written in Hebrew over it.

He wrote, "my father's claim to ownership, although completely documented, has been denied by Isrealit auithorities becasue they regard him as "absentee" and thus not a legitimate inheritor. Never mind that he was driven out at gunpoint."

Tiberias fell to Isreali forces and it was then that his dad was driven out and went to Eilaboun, with relatives. He wrote, "Dad showed me the square where the massacre at Eilaboun took place. On Oct. 30, 1948, most everyone from the village was in the church as the Arab irregulars were withdrawing. The bombing from the Isreali forces came closer....a loud voice ....said in broken Arabic, "He who wants to live,let him come out." They rushed out with their hands up and the Isreali  soldiers shot killing some and wounding others. The priest had a white flag in his hand. ....14 civilians were trucked north to Lebanon...14 men were shot in the town square....His father was ones taken to Lebanon.

He ends with others condemn ethnic cleansing inBosnia-Herzegovina, but refuse to acknowledge that Isreal has done something similiar. He also said the news reports on TV falsely claim the Palestinians left voluntarily in 1948.

He wrote, "the year 1948 resonates for Palestinians not just becasue it was a catastrolphic time but also becasue the removal of Palestinians from their land has never stopped."    

Is there Jewish culpability for driving Palestinians out of their homes, businesses and farms?

Obama address:

lula posts #15

leauki posts 16

Really and truly?

I wrote "The right of every human being to live with dignity and security is the lesson imbedded only in Christianity."

The lesson that is embedded only in Christiany comes from Christ's teaching of the virtue of love....Our Lord Jesus Christ's command is to "love your enemies: do good to them that hate you; and pray for them that persecute you and calumniate you"  Our Lord also commanded us to love God with all our whole heart, soul and mind and to love our neighbor as oursleves.

Now, Leauki, if you insist that "both Islam and "modern" Judaism know of the right of every human being to live with dignity and security, are in fact, religions based on love, then have them start to prove it with deeds.

Honestly, your version of "Christianity" here, the one that makes you insult Judaism and Islam, does not really come accross as a "religion based on love".

Do you think people read what you write and think of you as a "loving individual"?

I realise people do not read me and think "loving", but then I don't claim that my religion is more "loving" than others.

If you have ever shown respect for religions other than your own I must have missed it.

Now where did you get this notion from?

I am your akhi.

Yes, and the reason for this is from the Tikkun Olam which came from Socialist Rabbis out of Europe.

The palastinian christians are constantly under attack by the palastinian muslims, who butcher them. Israel is one of their sole supporters and protectors. Some anti semetic news papers print fabricated stories trying to show otherwise. But israeli troops rutinely protect christians and israelis help supply them with arms to defend themselves against the constant attacks by muslims.

As for "the fence"... the US built a fence to stop illegal immigrants, and dozens of other nations across the world (several in europe) have also built such fence... israel builds a fence to stop SUICIDE BOMBERS and suddenly it is anathema.

No, that is a retarded explanation. First, is the US constantly attacked for its occupation of texas? And second of all, for the first 20 years those "occupied palastinian territories" were occupied by arab countries... the egyptians for example, slaughtered palastinians and kept them in camps. When israel beat egypt in the 6 days war, egypt agreed to peace on the conditions that:

1. israel return the oil wells

2. israel KEEP the palastinian territories.

Israel agreed and has been in peace with egypt since then. Of course, they now had the palastinian territories...

In 2004 israel unilaterally withdrew from all palastinian territories and forcibly evicted all jewish settlers... No requests for peace, no demands that they accept israel's right to live... no thing, just a unilateral withdrawl... and you know what happened? they kept shooting rockets over the border and they kept sending in suicide bombers.

lula posts:

Taltimer posts:

Of murdering Palestinain Muslims, that may be....however this story seems to suggest that of the 2300 residents of Aboud,  Christians and Muslims were living there side by side!  Again, the point made is that the killing of Palestinian Christians and the taking of land was at the hands of Isrealis....and the news articles are from credible sources, one written by Robert Novak, a very reputable syndicated journalitst about an action taken by a US Congressman Henry Hyde.

I am aware of the fences built and being built to prevent illigal aliens (not immigrants for that would imply a lawful procedure), from entering the USA....however, this isn't comparing apples with apples as no one, (at least to my knowledge) has ever been deprived of their water supply as a result and it's not as though the US is occupying Mexican land, calling it its own. Also in the US, there is something called "eminent domain" and the people are given a fair compensation for the land the fence is on...and further still many of the landowners who live on the border LOVE the fence and help the border officers keep it in good shape and moniter it.In short, the fence in the US is not causing inconvenience, suffering and hardship as the Isreali fence is for the Arabs.

Again, back to the news story...

Anyway, the village is threatened by the construction of Isreal's "security" barriers...the big fence. The late Robert Novak, an AMerican syndicated journalist wrote, "Following previous security security barrier construction that effectively expelled villagers from olive groves, Isreal in Oct. 2005, ordered new land confiscation to extend the barrier. Aboud's 2,300 residents about half Christian and half Muslim are being deprived of their water supply by the new construction."

The Holy Land Christian Society was formed to make the case for Palestinian Christians...they said, " It is clear that the security barrier is not about security but the annexation of land for the expansion of the settlements on the West bank and Isreali control over the water supply." The Isreali settlements of beit Arye and Ofarim were constructed on land previously taken from residents of Aboud.

According to the Holy Land Christian Society, the barrier wall wasn't to stop suicide bombers; it was for water and the expansion of land.

Yes, I know some severe nutcases would have Isreal obliterated, but Isreal is much mightier, more powerful, it's super intelligence network the best in the world and very capable of defending itself.

The occupation of the land, the barrier wall that cuts down the center of Arab towns separating families is security to Isreal and provacation to the Palestinians. 

Anyway, let the wall outline two states....Isreal has hers now, according to Obama, it's time for the Palestinians to have theirs.

sounds to me like you took a "news story" fabricated by a blatant anti semite (I hate using this term; sounds like whining and an excuse, it just happens to be true sometimes) and just accepted it as fact despite it contradicting all known facts.

Bullshit.

Palastinians DO have their's. According to obama they need to be connected by splitting israel. Why not do the same to the USA and it's occupied territories.

ANYTHING thaty creates security for Israel is a provocation to the "Palestinians".

There already is an Arab state in the territory of Palestine: Jordan.

But the problem with another Palestinian state is not Israel. It was the Arabs who consistently rejected a "Palestinian" state, not Israel.

So how exactly do you propose to convince the Arabs to create a "Palestinian" state and not invade it this time?

They rejected it in 1948, 1967, and 2001.

I am assuming that the complete nonexistence of anti-Semitism has already convinced you that it cannot be for the same reason that the Arabs are at war with ALL non-Arab peoples living in "Arab land"?

You see _I_ believe that the reason Israel has been at war since her independence is that the Arabs are at war with all non-Arab peoples in "Arab land" and won't accept ANY non-Arab peoples living in "Arab land", that anti-Semitism adds to that problem, and that Israel has, simply put, survived since 1948 and is hence at war since then.

What also adds to the continuing war is western anti-Semitism and support for the "Palestinian Cause". After all, the west (France and Germany) also sold weapons to Saddam so he could murder the Kurds.

Yes, that must be it.

The Arabs in 1948 had a time machine and attacked Israel because of the occupation that started in 1967.

[sarcasm]well, he has a point... if israel just died already the war would be over...[/sarcasm]

I have made that point myself several times.

But the entire question is offensive.

It's like asking why the Jews died in concentration camps. How could we blame the Nazis when it was the Jews who died? If the Jews hadn't died, the Nazis would be innocent.

Stupid Jews.

The Arabs are not at war with the Palestinian Christians living in Arab land are they?

Going back to Novak's news article about the village of Aboud.....its 2,300 residents are about half Christian and half Muslim aand according to the story, they are the ones being deprived of their water supply by the new construction.

Guys, stop whining and get over the victimhood...Isreal is a very powerful state.

1. The "Palestinian" Christians are Arabs.

2. And yes, they are. Bethlehem used to be a Christian city. But in the last ten years the Muslims have driven them out. Hamas also has some very interesting views of Christianity.

Christians in Gaza are regularly attacked and killed by Hamas henchmen. This is rarely reported because NOBODY, and certainly not you, NOBODY FUCKING CARES about Christians in the Middle-East. Muslim fundamentalists have been targeting Christians for decades. Nobody speaks up for them. Western "peace activists" are too busy condemning Israel and don't care much about Christians anyway.

Did you know that in southern Sudan over one million Christians died in the Civil War against the Arab government of Sudan? Did you know that Iraqi Christians have been fleeing the country for decades and are now fleeing to Europe and the Kurdish regions? Did you know that in the Lebanese Civil War Arab nationalists were fighting Catholics, Israel's allies?

Did you know that in the last Eurovision contest one of the two Israeli representatives was a Christian woman who in a press interview complained that so many in the west have become Hamas supporters despite Hamas' attitude towards Jews, Christians, anyone who isn't a fundamentalist Muslim submitting to their will?

So please don't tell me that "Palestinian" Christians are somehow safe from Arab attacks. Most of them have also long left the area.

Not that the Christians are innocent. I remember the Lebanese "refugee camps" where Catholic Christians murdered hundreds of "Palestinian" Muslims. Israel was blamed for it, obviously. Israel could have stopped the Catholics. (The Catholics could have stopped themselves, one might think.) But that aside the Catholic responsible for it, Elie Hobeika, then fled to Syria, where I am sure he enjoyed a good career of persecuting Christians and Muslims.

And how do we know that he is not lying or being told lies like it is so often the case when Israel has allegedly committed a crime?