The same company produced both NWN2 and KOTOR2, both un-finished, buggy and poor ending games.

Both sequels to a game that left it's mark.

Bioware (I think is the name of the guilty company) should be forbidden to make any sequel again.

KOTOR was so awesome. KOTOR2 just sucked. I remember so many things about the original. I played the story over several times and tried new things each time. About all I remember from the KOTOR2 was running around an old mine in my underwear, training in my underwear aboard the ship with some chick, and landing on some moon (may or may not have been in my underwear).

I also remember the cover had a picture of some sweet Sith Lord, like Darth Nihilus or something. I remember just rolling over Sith Lords but I don't even remember fighting him. What a crap game

For the record, Bioware made the first KOTOR but handed the second off to a company called Obsidian.

But yeah KOTOR was awesome and thought I liked parts of KOTOR 2 it got reaaalll loopy towards the end. Some of the characters and ideas put forth in KOTOR 2 were good but the game is painfully rushed and buggy as all get out. And Nihilus was a complete cream puff which is sad .

Obsidian actually developed both Neverwinter Nights 2 and Knights of the Old Republic 2. Bioware are perhaps one of the best existing development houses, so it's an important distinction.

In their defence, I played the latter (before playing the original KOTOR, actually) and neither had a problem finishing the game nor any major issues with bugs, and this was a week or so after it came out. Neverwinter Nights 2 wasn't buggy so much as incredibly poorly coded - my rig should have eaten it alive, but instead performance was very poor. Obsidian obviously screwed up, but consider it this way: NWN2 may have been slow, and its ending may have been poor, but it contained some excellent voice acting and a well-executed storyline. KOTOR2 flagged towards the end, but featured some brilliant characters and escaped from the rigid, cartoon-like good/evil divide of the original, replacing it with a much more subtle system that gave the game a much better storyline, to my mind.

Just my tuppence.

One of the reasons that Obsidions games are so buggy and unfinished is that the publisher doesn't give them alot of room to work with if the games not 100%, they're actually contractually forced to release the game before they want to. At least thats what they said for KOTOR2, they're not allowed to work on it till its done they work on it up to the deadline and then its thrown out.

You are correct, LucasArts forced Obsidian to release early so as not to miss the christmas rush. Unfortunately, I witnessed first hand how good of a game Obsidian had made out of the 1st 7/10ths of the release and how horribly buggy, broken, nonsensical and very clearly rushed the rest of the game was. Obsidian apparently petitioned Lucasarts to allow them to at least patch the game afterwards and add in the content they had to cut. Lucasarts declined. So, I have taken it upon myself to decline purchasing further Lucasarts releases. I played NWN2 and did not have any problems with it, and while it ended abruptly, they at least tied up the loose ends in the sequel. Bioware was not involved with KOTOR2 beyond selling the rights to make it, support, and letting them use their engine.

As for Stardock, you guys rock. I am definately buying Twilight and am looking forward to whatever is next. I think I saw something about fantasy tbs. Huh, imagine that something that I have been wanting for years. I worry about you guys though, if you dont make a world war 2 shooter, or an MMO soon the Gods of Gaming may smite you with their Vorpal Holy Avenger of Creativity Drain + 5.

To be fair, KOTOR 2 had superior writing compared to KOTOR thanks to Chris Avellone (who also wrote for Planescape Torment), so we should give Obsidian that much.

Yes, KOTOR 2 and NWN 2 were both unfinished and extremely buggy. But I heard the NWN 2 expansion/patches make it much more playable (haven't played the expansion though).

That's too bad about LucasArts not letting Obsidian finish it. I would definitely go back and play it if it were a little more polished.

And yes, Bioware passed on KOTOR2 to work on another game that was great but the title eludes me. It was set in feudal Japan. KOTOR2 was the work of Obsidian, yes.

BTW, Stardock, I don't believe I will ever have to rant about these very issues with you guys. Keep up the good work!

Here is one of the video game axiom that every dev should learn:

A game should not be enjoyable only after mod/patch/expansion have been downloaded/bought. Why?

Because if they actually rush to sell the game, the people who will buy it more for christmas (the ACTUAL target of the rushing) are going to end up with a poor game.

and then all the review sites give it poor scores... and the people who actually buy games as a christmas gift (ie, non gaming family members) are not gonna buy it (At least I am assuming they look for "top rated" games to buy rather then just randomly plucking something off a shelf).

Yes its a shame... but I am so glad galciv does NOT suffer from this problem. The game is released when its ready. not before that. And it is patched with new and exciting content later (not with cut content, but with litterally new and previously unthought of content)

I was a huge fan of KOTOR 1 and NWN, for that matter anytime Bioware comes out with a new game I tend to get excited (Dragon Age anyone?). When Bioware started making mainly X-Box games I went into mourning. Based solely on NWN and KOTOR 1, I bought the expansion for NWN, NWN 2, and KOTOR 2 all made by Obsidian and have been nothing but disapointed. Heck, I got to the last boss in NWN 2, died and uninstalled it from my computer; not because I couldn't beat the boss but because I just didn't care anymore.

It is because of these experiences that I will never buy another game made by Obsidian. I can understand that they were pressured to release early etc. but the fact remains that they released some pretty bad games.

Then again companies like Obsidian remind us of just how good Stardock is to us.

Edit: spelling

Jade Empire, perhaps?

Obsidian are a fine development studio ok, it isnt really their fault. This team has many of the key members which made the great RPG's like Baldurs gate and Planescape: Torment.

If you are looking for blame look to their publishers

Lucasarts and Atari.

These guys forced Obsidian to release both NWN2 (atari) and KOTOR2 (lucasarts) far too early. NWN2 is looking in much better shape these days due to the expantion and the patches.

I'm praying that Atari (in financial strife) dies a quick death once and for all.

Even "the witcher" would have been a much better game without their involvement. The sooner they go down, giving other publishers the oportunity to buy rights to their franchises the better.

However, You will be thankful to know bioware are back on the scene taking developing duties for Kotor3

People really need to seperate the concepts of publishers and developers. There are few development studios that are cash rich enough to be able to function without a publisher, and many publishers are to blame for unfinished products, by forcing the develepment teams to release a product to early to catch holidays seasons and so forth.

Bioware made KOTOR, but lucas arts was a pain so they said "goodbye and good luck" and send it over to obsidian to work on KOTOR2. Obsidian did an awesome job at first, but they had to release an unfinished product due to lucas arts forcing them to, they petitioned them to allow them to patch it, and were declined. There is a restoration project finishing the game to what it is supposed to be, its almost done.
http://www.team-gizka.org/

Neverwinter nights was another bioware awesomeness, this time with Wizards of the coast (DnD) owning the licenses, and atari as the publish they have both been giving bioware a lot of grief. Atari made them release a buggy product too early, and in fact many of the premium modules (you buy extra campaigns, like a mini expansion) were canceled at the lat moment due to wizards saying "they don't fit with our theme" and nixing them... The hex coda is the best of those, and was finished and released as a free download by the design team leader (originally a free modder hired by bioware to make a premium module).
The told wizards to shove off and handed off NWN2 to obsidian yet again... who was forced to release too early AGAIN and released a buggy as hell game, that was completely unplayable due to bugs until the first expansion came around (it was clear to me that obsidian was working around wizards to get as much fixed in the engine while dallying on making the actual module, since the content shouldn't have taken nearly that long to make)

Bioware has had enough of bad publisher and copyright owners and have decided to break the mold with Mass Effect, where they hired writers to create their own universe complete in their own control and in their own copyright, they may do with it whatever they want with no limitations. So far its going good. Though it was an "xbox exclusive" for a few months until they announced that they "changed their minds" (read: their contract with MS expired) and will be making a PC version... which is set to release in 3 months from today, on may of 08.

Oh there was jade empire there too... another "xbox exclusive" that later came out for the PC.
Don't despair about them releasing only xbox games, look it up, all their games end up on the PC later. And they are awesome beyond belief.

Well, I can agree with this. KOTOR2 was too rushed, and I didn't like the new GUI, and NWN2 has the most annoying f**king camera a game has EVER seen. I haven't been able to get into NWN2, because of it, so I can't really have an opinion on the game.