Speaking up against our would be soviet overlords.

The FOSS community has a great way to explain what they mean by free...

"Free as in beer" or "Free as in speech" helps differentiate between different meanings of the word "free".

Many keep on calling communist healthcare "free healthcare". Presumably because they have failed economics.

In many senses such a healthcare system is free... "free" as in "Free People's Democratic Republic of ..."; we have all noticed how tyrannical authoritarian governments refer to themselves with such adjectives. And the healthcare "reform" that was actually passed here in the united states is no exception. Rather then believing in the rhetoric that everyone who opposes it is a rich old white man who wants those less fortunate to die due to lack of treatment, perhaps you should consider listening to both sides with an open mind.

The liberals paint a very appealing emotional explanation as to why this would be the greatest thing, how it would save lives, and how anyone who opposes it is evil, rich, and a bigot.

But if you dare only listen with an open mind to a conservative you would find out that our critiques focus on the actual "reform" being a bunch of empty promises, how they would specifically harm healthcare with ham-fisted approach that solves nothing, how there are real solutions (such as portability between jobs and state lines) which the bill does not include. The promise of communism is very rosy... everything is free, everything is taken care of, and there is no "waste" of "profiteering". But the reality is that we are looking at a decline.

How well has communist healthcare worked in the united states before?

The government runs medicare, medicaid, and veterans care. All three of which are deep in debt, highly inefficient, and decline MORE care then any private insurance, with the worst private insurance still providing twice the actual care of medicare.

The government of Massachusetts has taken over the healthcare market there years ago, and what was the result? The healthcare market in MA is 95% non profit organizations... as a direct result of the government MANDATING pricing and policies all are going bankrupt. They have all stopped selling policies... if you live in MA then you can NOT buy healthcare. They are throwing open their books to the public and showing exactly how they will go bankrupt. But the current governor promised in his election that prices will not rise, and last I check was threatening administrators of those companies with fines or more if they do not resume sale of policies and REDUCE prices even further.

And what of countries such as canada? there you have strict rationing. Where the richest go to private clinics and pay an arm and a leg, and the middle class and the poor simply do not receive the care they need.

And what of countries like china? or the USSR in its time? those were certainly not nice places to get sick in.

So yes, "free healthcare" is a perfect description for it, as long as you qualify it with "free" as in "Free People's Democratic Republic of ..."


Comments
on May 07, 2010

And what of countries such as canada? there you have strict rationing. Where the richest go to private clinics and pay an arm and a leg, and the middle class and the poor simply do not receive the care they need.

That ain't true at all.

2 weeks ago, I went to the hospital 'cause I had a weird jaw pain and inflammation. Got seen within 1h30 of waiting after all the hospital registration process was done. The doc told me because of jaw-clenching. Did not had to pay a thing, and got a good service.

People get treated a lot on our side. Problems don't comes from a matter of quota. It's a matter of capacity. Sometimes, we simply have too much patients for the available infrastructure, and it somewhat clogs down the hospital. But this is never a permanent situation.

You often use examples of Canadian citizen going into the U.S. to get treatment. Yet you never brought up the topic of the multiple people having dual citizenship, living in the U.S., who cross the border to get their free treatment (which I find totally immoral, as they are not paying Canadian taxes).

on May 07, 2010

Problems don't comes from a matter of quota. It's a matter of capacity.

Where in the system is there any incentive for increasing 'capacity'?  You do understand that capacity=taxes, right?

on May 07, 2010

And what of countries like china? or the USSR in its time? those were certainly not nice places to get sick in.

This is true. My wife had colon cancer in China, four years ago. The doctors that did the surgery were excellent (it was a military hospital, but all the patients were civilians. My wife went here because of the head surgeons qualifications). The hospital itself was terrible. The toilets were filthy (and they were the swatty potty type) and smelly. Some patients had their beds in the hallways. Hot water was delivered to the rooms and transfered into big thermos (which I never saw them taken away to be cleaned. This water was used for sponge baths, but the patients also drank this water (they love hot drinking water for some reason). My wife had a room with three other patients in various stages of health. Family members can stay with the patients 24/7 and it's a good thing as they provide the patient their meals and hygiene needs (no privacy curtains). Patients without family can hire old women to assist them, provided they have the money (which is surprisingly a good price @ $6 to $7 dollars a day). These old women practically live in the hospital, and they do stay with the patient all the time except when they go out to buy the patient's food.

As for the care, once you can no longer pay, you are discharged and politely told to go home and die (I saw it happen). My wife was there about 6 weeks covering her first chemotherapy. She then transfered to another hospital (much cleaner, more modern, same policies, no pay no stay) to finish up her series of treatments which would just be an overnight for the next 6 months. Now my wife would probably be considered middle class by Chinese standards. She is a English professor at a medium sized college. Her college paid 70% of her hospital cost and she paid the other 30%. Like most Chinese she is thrifty (this current generation might be a bit different), so no problem on her part. Hundreds of millions there are not so fortunate. The moment they find out you have no money, that's it. No emergency room to get seen, like in the US, the hospital reserve the right to refuse treatment. But everyone shares the benefits in Communism (or Socialism), right? Naw, that's only in fantasy socialist land. Maybe there are free clinics, I didn't see any. If there are, they are probably beyond overloaded and handing out placebos by the handful. Americans just don't know how good they do have it.

BTW the "health care reform" did not reform health care one bit. It was redistribution of insurance (according to Pelosi, you can read it now that it is passed). The bill might actually cause medical procedures, pharmaceuticals, and actual care to rise in price. When you dump 30 million people on a health system that already needs more doctors and nurses, it would seem to spread them thin. On top of that tell them they will have to take more Medicare patients, with reduced payment amounts, and the medical professions might not seem so attractive to some anymore. We'll see soon enough. Only those that want folks to work longer for less, would want that, as long as they don't have to make the same sacrifices and they can get something for little or nothing . Greed works both ways.

on May 07, 2010

Many keep on calling communist healthcare "free healthcare". Presumably because they have failed economics.

No, they are probably totally ignorant in that area.  There are 3 types of people who call it that.  Some (a small portion) are as you state.  Type 2 are the politicians that lie in order to bed the women.  And Type 3 are the leeches that do not want to work for anything, just live off of someone else.  And for them, it is free.  As is all of their life.

on May 07, 2010

Yet you never brought up the topic of the multiple people having dual citizenship, living in the U.S., who cross the border to get their free treatment (which I find totally immoral, as they are not paying Canadian taxes).

Whoa!  Cikomyr just slammed illegal immigrants in the US without knowing it!  Way to go!

on May 07, 2010

Whoa! Cikomyr just slammed illegal immigrants in the US without knowing it! Way to go

Well.. technically, not "illegal immigrants". More like "Social benefit thieves"

Where in the system is there any incentive for increasing 'capacity'? You do understand that capacity=taxes, right?

That's the main problem. I ain't saying that we have no problem. Just that it isn't the 3rd-world rate healthcare you politically-conveniently depict it to be.

We have one of the best child care in the world, even compared to the U.S.. People have very high survival rate for trauma, diseases, etc..

It's just that our hospitales aren't ran like businesses. That is all. They might win something if they did. But we wouldn't loose our universal healthcare coverage.

on May 07, 2010

No, they are probably totally ignorant in that area.  There are 3 types of people who call it that.  Some (a small portion) are as you state.  Type 2 are the politicians that lie in order to bed the women.  And Type 3 are the leeches that do not want to work for anything, just live off of someone else.  And for them, it is free.  As is all of their life.

The last liberal I heard who used the term is a british person who lives in australia. So its not like he would ever receive any of it... its just that liberals really do believe that communist care is free care.

2 weeks ago, I went to the hospital 'cause I had a weird jaw pain and inflammation. Got seen within 1h30 of waiting after all the hospital registration process was done. The doc told me because of jaw-clenching. Did not had to pay a thing, and got a good service.

And is that the care you always received?

My family had experiences with socialized healthcare in canada and in israel...

In canada: When my mom gave birth to my middle brother, she said she was in pain, they gave her a sedative, then she said she is still in pain, they gave her a sedative, then she said she was still in pain, they gave her a sedative... then she said she couldn't feel her legs, the doctor asked how many painkillers she had cause her chart says she only had 1, she said 3... well, luckily that doctor knew to ask or she would have died. (they were able to save her).

In israel: When I was 11 months old I was rushed to the hospital in an ambulance due to loss of consciousness and a seizure from fever (only seizure I ever had in my life; it was only 38 degrees C but I was a baby... my parents didn't know to put a kid in a body temperature bath of water if their temperature gets high). Well, they got me stabilized (the nurse just grabbed and doused me with cold water from the sink)... but let a 4 year old girl with measles into my room (during the observation period; they kept me for a night) infecting me with that.

When I went with a broken finger (in my early teens) I had a doctor who was clearly intoxicated (after hours of wait of course), he couldn't find the fracture, I pointed out how the bone has clearly been pulverized at a certain point (it was literally a cm of nothing but smashed chips where a bone should have been)... he then tried to put a cast... it was not holding well... he said "don't worry, it will get harder later"... it fall apart within a day. My dad had to go buy a bracer when I applied myself.

When I shattered my tooth (also early teens, I think I was 12) because another kid in school smashed my face into the floor, I got an angry old lady who had no patience... after rebuilding it she needed to file it down... Naturally I couldn't feel it because it was a prosthetic... well, she got to the actual live tooth and kept filing... I started yelling and screaming in pain but she just yelled back at me... I didn't let her complete it after a few more tries... but thats all I was really going to get.

Heck... my grandfather died because they kept on telling him his gangrened toe is "fine".

The stories go on. (more in Israel because we were only in Canada for 3 years). Sure I could always go to a clinic and it was "free" (if you can call a tax rate of over 70% free). The biggest thing I recall are endless lines, shoddy care, and nothing you could do about it. And of course, more nosocomial infections because you always have to share the room.

The thing is, my anecdotal stories are just that, anecdotal. Focusing on one person's stories gives a very skewed view... since they might have just had terrible luck. You need to look at the bigger picture. I looked up myself the wait list of a bypass surgery in Canada...18 months. if you need that you are not going to live 18 months... see how the "problem" resolves itself?

You could also look at investigative journalism... here is a good example: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=StevenCrowder#p/u/33/q2jijuj1ysw

Or you could look at the facts that the system in no way encourages or promotes or rewards success. only failure. That communism never worked anywhere, ever. That the situation in socialized healthcare nations is steadily worsening year after year. and it will continue to do so until the become as bad as China.

So I am glad you got a good treatment that time... good for you.

on May 17, 2010

Well.. technically, not "illegal immigrants". More like "Social benefit thieves"

Same thing.

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